LED Recessed Lights are Here - REALLY HERE!!!
This morning I finally got a look at the new LR6 6" LED can light module from LED Lighting Fixtures, Inc. (LLF).
After many disappointments in my search for an LED fixture that provides a comparable amount of light to a 65 watt incandescent flood light, the LR6 fills the bill and then some!
The LR6 actually provides more footcandles of light on the work surface than a 65-watt flood. Mounted side by side, the LR6 was clearly brighter.
An LR6 installed pulls just 12 watts of electricity. WOW!!!
Better yet (Well, that was pretty good but THIS gets a designer's attention), the LR6 has a Color Rendering Index (CRI) of 92. That means a tomato will look like a tomato; nice rich red...not purple, not brown. Very few light sources have CRIs over 90. That is considered the gold standard.
You may never change another light bulb, or even forget how! The LR6 lasts more than 20 years (50,000 hours) under normal use.
It comes in 2700 Kelvin (incandescent range) or 5300 Kelvin (sunlight range) temperatures.
The LR6 is dimmable, though Lutron is working on a better dimming system than what is available now (which I am told is a bit choppy in its dimming).
A lens that is quite unique covers the LEDs, so you don't see a light bulb at all. The lens refracts the colors of red and green LEDs in the fixture to make white light! Who'da thought?
It retrofits (screws into the existing light bulb socket) easily in most 6" recessed IC or non-IC fixtures. So if you already have can lights in your ceiling, chances are you can swap them out very easily yourselves.
If you are doing a remodel or new construction they have a hard-wired setup that conforms to California's Title 24 requirements (YEAY!) with a GU-24 base instead of the screw-in base. (Here in California we have had homeowners and contractors who install fluorescent fixtures and then swap them out for incandescent after the final inspection. Therefore the State requires bi-pin fluorescents and fixtures that are much harder to swap.)
They run cool. So no running up the air conditioning bill or burn spots on the tops of bald heads from hot halogens.
I've been saying they're not quite there yet for two years now. THE WAIT IS OVER. They are here.
I know, the next question is: How much?
They are pricey at about $130.00 each. They WILL pay for themselves pretty quickly in energy savings compared to incandescent. Comparing to fluorescent, the premium is a little harder to justify unless you are one who wants that perfect color rendering characteristic of a 92 CRI fixture.
LLF technology uses only 12 watts of power. That's 85% less energy spent per incandescent light, and 50% less than a CFL.
Save Money
How can one light save hundreds of dollars? On average in the United States, running a 65-watt light for 50,000 hours would cost $325 in electricity alone. Because the LR6 uses only 12 watts, running the light for 50,000 hours will cost only $60 under the same scenario. In addition, you will no longer spend time or money replacing lights. Over the lifetime of one LR6, you will save $265 dollars or more on your electric bill alone. Imagine the savings if every light in your home was an LR6!
They're GREEN too! No mercury or other earth or people-poisoning substances.
I think most of my clients will want it enough to pay the premium once they see one on display. I'm putting one (2700 Kelvin) in my own kitchen to see how I like it...I have a feeling I'm gonna be buying four more for the other cans I have in there.
Before I post this, I think I'll invest in the company. I'm sold! ;-D
Peggy
02/25/08
An addendum to this post is that LLF has just been acquired by Cree, Inc. After the acquisition is complete, in March 2008, LLF will be known as Cree LED Lighting Solutions. Cree will be keeping the LLF people on board.
7/29/08
A further addendum:
I have finally gotten around to installing an LR6 in my own kitchen (replacing the center surface-mount fluorescent). It is incredibly BRIGHT and there's a wonderful color to the light.
I STRONGLY recommend these fixtures, and using wider spacing than past practice. I'd say 4' on center would provide plenty of ambient light for a room. I will be interested to try the new LR4 in kitchens too, as that will be fewer lumens and likely closer to what we are accustomed to with 8' ceilings.
Peggy
Posts
Oh, that is shiny! Thank you, thank you! I've been less than enthusiastic about LED for lack of color rendering and spread -- now you've got me all excited again!
ReplyDeleteI was completely thrilled looking at these in person last week. Great color rendering. Very bright. Dimmable. No flicker. I went to the light store the day the LLF came in. I love them!
ReplyDeleteYes-sir-ee and a whoopee, they are here! They are only available in 6" but they are working on 5" and 4" for future release. I am waiting for Calif. to ammend the Title 24 code to allow these lights to qualify as energy efficient.
Lights Beautiful in Ventura, CA installed a "light room" where clients can see for themselves the different lighting options. I can't wait to spec these out for my jobs.
ReplyDeleteI’m concerned that they are comparing to 65 watt cans rather than 75 watt. I usually use 75 watt incandescent cans or 26 watt CFL cans, will these work with the same spacing? Or will they need to be spaced closer? With 6” cans, I’m concerned about swiss cheese ceilings.
Joanne
I think the spacing would be the same as what you are accustomed to using or MORE, not less.
The interesting thing about these fixtures is that they send light out 180 degrees in a 1/2-orb shape.
The light produced is much more ambient than a regular can, which is directional DOWN but not out.
A flood is a little bit more spread out than a spot reflector lamp, but not as spread out as these. They are like task and ambient in one.
Take a look at the LLF web site on the Product Demonstrations page.
http://www.llfinc.com/demos.htm
Note how the walls are much more lighted than with other lamping strategies shown.
This very well illustrates just one more of the advantages of using these fixtures.
Even the shadows don't look as deep in the LR6 photos.
I think that's because of this omni-directional characteristics of the lens and interior of the fixture as well as the number of small LED lamps inside...
Granted, they could be retouched...But judging by what I saw with my own eyes with the 65 watt incandescent and LR6 side by side, I'd say not.
Peggy
I'm surprised that nobody is concerned about the glare that these fixtures create, given that they radiate light in a 180 degree pattern. Most people will experience discomfort in a high-glare environment. Is this not the case?
ReplyDeleteI didn't find the lamps to be uncomfortably glary at all Tom.
ReplyDeleteAnd the rep showing it had a demo set up with a PR6 and a 65watt spot incandescent side by side.
I think it has do do with the lens.
The light is quite bright, but diffuse.
It's hard to imagine red and green LEDs behind that lens...The light looks so pure white - even on close examination.
The lens gives these fixures a "magical" property that no other fixture maker has achieved.
No. I will not hesitate to specify these for general and task lighting.
My only concern is: will CA building departments accept them as Title 24 conforming? Or are we jumping ahead too far for them?
Peggy
This seems to be pretty nice that LED lights can now be used instead of your conventional bulbs for kitchen lighting. Are there any negative effects of using LED lights? Do they happen to be more expensive?
ReplyDeleteJust about the ONLY negative I have seen with these LR6 inserts is their cost. Here in the San Francisco Bay Area I am told they are about $130 each.
ReplyDeleteIf they are going in as new recessed cans in new construction or a remodel you have to add the cost of the fixture to that cost, plus installation.
Payback is generous and steady throughout their lifetime of use, estimated at 20 years; so they will easily pay for themselves in electricity savings compared to incandescent. Compared to fluorescent, you have to value the CRI (color rendering index) of 92 and the aesthetic improvements of LED lighting to justify the cost difference.
Judging by past behavior of homeowners, this will not be a difficult choice. People WANT to be green in their choices while having their homes look warm and inviting and their tomatoes look red!
Peggy
These are it! Very exciting. I just did my own in home comparison. I compared the LR6 (2700 Kelvin) to the LED from PermLight (Halogen White). Although I find the PermLight's trim attractive, the LR6 stands out with it's brightness and color. (PermLight's LEDs come in three different "colors"/Kelvin: fluorescent, halogen, and incadescent. Fluorescent looks just like that and icandescent is too heavy on the yellow, makes you look jaundiced)
ReplyDeleteIt seems LLF does not sell under-the-cabinet lights. Are there under-the-cabinet LED's that are similar to the LR6 in term of color and brightness? Which under-the-the-cabinets are the best in your oppinion?
Peggy, thank for a great, informative site and blog!
Tanja
These are expensive, but I just installed 25 of them in my remodel. I was able to purchase them for $90 each (contractor pricing), and save about $15 on the usual trim and bulbs. The additional cost of the LR6 ends up at about $75. Still a lot of money, but they payback time does get a bit shorter. In addition I am reducing the drain on the power grid, and lowering my carbon footprint.
ReplyDeleteI was wondering whether you think it's worth getting the new LR4 over the LR6?
ReplyDeleteThanks.
The new LR4 is really more like a 5" recessed can. Very well engineered and designed, and way more light than any other LED recessed can I have seen, except the LR6.
ReplyDeleteI see no reason to hesitate using EITHER the LR4 or the LR6.
Obviously you will get more lumens from the LR6. So, if you are using them for general lighting, that means wider spacing and fewer "holes in the ceiling"...Also lower cost for fewer fixtures.
Peggy
I'm very interested in installing these all over my house, from the kitchen to hallways to bedrooms. I've got a 3500K sample from a local distributor. I'm not sure whether to use the 3500K everyhwere in the kitchen only and then 2700K in the rest of the house? Any thoughts?
ReplyDeleteMy first thought is to be consistent.
ReplyDeleteThe 3500 is going to shine like a beacon in the kitchen compared to the rest of the house at 2700.
Is the kitchen an entirely separate room?
If not, I would choose one color temperature for all.
The other thing to assess is whether both offer the same CRI (Color Rendering Index). High CRI is what makes tomatoes look red instead of ghastly. Looks like the LR6 offers 92 CRI in both 2700K and 3500K.
Peggy
So I purchased two to try out in a separate room of the house. Went with 2700K. Just put them in today and it looks like 2700K will probably be the way we'll go throughout the house. But I'm going to see how these work for a couple of weeks before I pull the trigger on the rest. The other decision we have to make is whether to buy the decorative trim or leave them as is.
ReplyDeleteQ.
ReplyDeleteAt 11:26 AM 8/27/2008, you wrote:
Peggy,
I read your blog on Kitchen-exchange related to the LR6 6" led can light module from LED Lighting Fixtures.
You mentioned that the CRI value of 92 will mean a tomato will look like a tomato. There are 2 Kelvin values available for these lights....2700 and 3500 from CREE Lighting (a company that I believe has purchased LED Lighting). Which one will make the tomato look like a tomato?
I will be installing them in my kitchen remodel and I am about to buy the lights.
Thanks for all of the information you provide.
Jerry
A.
Either one will.
The 2700K is warmer, more like the incandescent you are accustomed to using at home.
The 3500K is cooler, but not as cool as sunlight; which is rated at 5000K.
If your kitchen colors are warm, like wood tones, I would choose the 2700K. If colors are cool, like blues and greens, I would choose the 3500K.
Beyond that I really like to SEE the actual light output and my chosen materials under it.
I also like to see my own skin under the light because I want to look good in my own kitchen too!
In my kitchen I have a 2700K LR6 because I prefer the warmer tone.
You can also go with wider spacing than the old incandescent cans.
The LR6 casts light all around, not in a tight cone like the old floods and spots.
I'd say about 4' spacing would be plenty.
Peggy
Have you been able to compare the LR6's to the new recessed LED lights by LED Waves. They are considerably cheaper, but not dimmable, and only 9 watts. Very curious as to how they compare. Thanks
ReplyDeleteNo Kurt, I haven't.
ReplyDeleteBut the new standards coming for LED fixtures should end that confusion soon.
I'd be very cautious about cheap LED fixtures until then...or any LED fixtures that haven't been well-vetted by those in the know.
I SAW the LR6 with my own eyes before I got excited about their efficacy. Everything I had seen before them was too dim to consider using in a downlight application in a kitchen I put my name on.
The one we placed in our own kitchen only confirmed how good it is.
Peggy
The lr6 complies with ca title 24 energy efficiency standards. I have outfitted my last two projects and have had no problems.
ReplyDeleteI have a sloped ceiling in my kitchen and I would like to use the LED's but I've heard they are not made yet with sloped cans. I'm hoping this has changed and there actually is something out there in a sloped recessed can. Any info you can provide would be helpful. Thanks, Kim
ReplyDeleteGood point Kelly.
ReplyDeleteI believe you are correct. There are no sloped ceiling cans that take LEDs at present.
The manufacturers are rolling out products as fast as they can.
I suggest you contact Cree, the company that makes the LR series LED downlights now, and put in a request for them.
You could also ask them if the fixtures they do support at present could be built into a small box mounted on the sloped ceiling.
The box would be made with a sloped top to conform to the angle of the ceiling. The bottom would be level to mount the can into.
That might be a solution. The box would match the ceiling material...either sheetrock or wood.
Ventilation could be added on three sides to keep the fixture from overheating in a confined space.
Not as clean as a sloped can, but a solution that could work.
Good luck and keep us posted if you are successful.
Peggy
We (homeowners) recently compared the 6" can-light inserts from Cree (LR6 in 2700K color) and the 4" can-light LED insert from Progress Lighting in 3500K color (#P8026-28/35K for 3500K color and P8026-28 for 2700K color). In our opinion, you can't go wrong with either the Cree or the Progress Lighting P8026 series.
ReplyDeleteBoth are excellent LED inserts. Both can be purchased either in Title-24 compliant plug-ins or in standard medium E26/E27 screw-base (not Title-24 certified, but retrofittable to standard screw-in type cans). Both Cree and Progress Lighting ship Title-24 compliant pigtails with their Title-24 lights so that an old-style screw-base can light may be converted, but some code jurisdictions will still not accept them as Title-24 compliant luminaires because the conversion was done in the field, not in the factory. If code compliance for Title 24 is important to you, be sure to do thorough research, and take the printed information with you to your building and safety department and get their approval BEFORE you invest any time or money in trying to convert existing screw-base can-light fixtures to Title-24 compliant fixtures. It's a slippery slope, and you need to be certain of your own footing and get clear, written approval by your local code enforcers before you proceed.
The advantage of the Progress lighting unit is it is retrofittable to existing 4" cans, whereas the Cree LR4 is actually a 5" light and can be installed only in the Cree-provided can fixture. Both Cree and Progress Lighting make direct inserts for existing 6" cans. Note: Cree also has an LR5 insert that will fit into other manufacturer's 5" cans, but it dois available only in screw-base and only in 2700K color. See http://www.creelighting.com/downloads/LR5.pdf
In our simple test in our home using an inexpensive Leviton slide dimmer (dimmer is bout five years old, from Home Depot), the Progress Lighting P8026 dimmed beautifully and smoothly and to a very low level (the P8026 dimmed down lower than the Cree LR6 and it dimmed more smoothly than the Cree). Using the expensive Lutron "Maestro" paddle-switch type of electronic dimmer, the Cree dimmed OK, not great, and the P8026 didn't like the Lutron dimmer AT ALL - it never got to full brightness and it was choppy and strobed).
Regarding color, we already had a couple of 2700K LED bulbs installed in screw-based cans, and we tested the Cree LR6 with 2700K ("warm white") against the 3500K ("neutral white") in the P8026. Although we already had a bias towards the warmer look of 2700K LED bulbs, my wife and I both decided we preferred the 3500K because (a) it appears brighter (even though the P8026 in 3500K is rated at 517 lumens and the LR6 in 2700K is rated at 650 lumens), and (b) the color-neutrality of the 3500K light was preferrable to both of us personally. I think 3500K is the highest color-rating we could comfortably go, and I think we would prefer maybe 3200-3300K if it was available, but the 3500K, especially in the bathroom and kitchen where better visibility is desired, won us over compared to the 2700K. Luckily, both the Cree and the Progress Lighting are both can be had in either color. Our local electrical distributor (CED) stated that the vast majority of their Cree LR6 sales are the 3500K color - possibly because much of the local business is for office lighting.
As stated before, both the Cree LR6 and the Progress Lighting P8026-28/35K are excellent, high-quality LED inserts and if you are serious about convverting to LED lighting you owe both of them a good look.
We are having 10 Cree 6" 3500's installed in our 21' by 18' kitchen/dining room combo which includes an 8'L X 4'W granite island with smooth top stove. I think we want lights about 4' apart encircling the island/sink, which will be 8 lights, then one on either end of the dining room area, which is about 8'W from the island and 18'L. We will have a 5 light chandelier in the middle of that, IF I can find an energy efficient one that puts off enough light. Do you think the spacing around the island/sink at about 4' apart will be enough? Also, do you think the single lights at both ends of the dining room with the chandelier in the middle will be enough?
ReplyDelete4' spacing is probably fine "Anonymous". And your dining room scheme sounds fine too. Without looking at your floorplan and ceiling height I really can't conjecture beyond that.
ReplyDeletePeggy
Dear Peggy, I am so very happy I found this blog! I just yesterday was shown the LED retrofit idea at my local lighting store here in Chico, California. We have very hot summers. I have been worrying about my remodel and how to avoid too much lighting heat. I also have very long eaves on my house and am always struggling for more light. Monday next the contractor will set up the electrical. I am going to have to give him my "lighting" plan then.I definitely am going to use the LED can lighting. My cupboards are natural maple, the counters are buttermilk ceasarstone, the entire backsplash is Craftsman Tile in mulberry. I have all stainless steel appliances and a range hood that is also part glass. The island is a 4x5 piece of Typhoon Green granite. I know it sounds eclectic, but I think it will go together well. As far as the spacing of the LED cans, I am thinking of 5 of them in a U shape in the two walkways around the island and three down the main kitchen. The room measures about 10 feet by 18 feet. My ceilings are 8 feet. I am trying for the layered look of lighting with dimming for ambience. Over the island I am planning just a single fixture with three hanging pendants of some kind. Over the sink a small pendant and undercabinet lighting xenon strips. I have the option of putting in cabinet lighting for the two glass areas. It was suggested to hardwire LED strips there. Behind all of this lovely light is the dining room. We already have 4 inch recessed lighting along the perimeter so we are just leaving that and putting up a new focal piece over the dining room table. Thanks so much for your help and any feedback! Pam in Chico, Ca
ReplyDeleteBest of luck with your project Pam. Sounds lovely.
ReplyDeletePeggy
We have seen 6" Gimbal LED trim lights at Home Depot
ReplyDeleteSKU# 238413 for around $60.
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xgl/R-202025695/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053
However, the bulb is not one solid bulb but five small round lights. Should this make any difference in the amount of light, energy savings etc?
I recommend NOT buying a no-name product like the one mentioned from Home Depot. You will just be disappointed with the light output and down on LED lighting forever after.
ReplyDeleteIf you insist on experimenting with such products, at least actually physically compare the light output with a compact fluorescent or incandescent lightbulb of the same size and lumen output. Don't take their word that it's the same. SEE it. See how much light gets down to a counter or the floor from an 8' ceiling height.
If the store won't show it to you, shop elsewhere.
There are other issues, such as a heat sink to capture and dissipate heat from the fixture (or the LEDs die young), but UL approval and a manufacturer's warranty should cover that. Also light temperature and color-rendering.
Peggy
What is the normal time frame of warranty on LED? Is it 5 or 2 yrs? Plus they claim of 50,000 hours usage or 20 yrs seems a long time. Will they really last that long? I'm not even sure I would be owning my current house for that long of a period. Please advice. Thanks.
ReplyDeleteMichael
Cree currently warrants their LR6 LED downlight assembly thus: "Your Product, when delivered to you in new condition in its original packaging, is warranted against defects in materials or workmanship as follows: for a period of three (3) years from the date of original purchase, defective parts or a defective Product returned to Seller, or its authorized service providers, as applicable, and proven to be defective upon inspection, will be repaired, or exchanged for a new Product, as determined by Seller, or the authorized service provider. etc.
ReplyDeleteThey also claim 50,000 hours in their product sales literature.
I have had one in my kitchen for the last couple of years. It's working fine, but I can't guarantee it's going to last 50,000 hours until I have used it that long.
There are three reasons, in my mind, to use (high quality) LED downlights: Their superior color rendering compared to fluorescents; their energy savings; and their longevity (especially in hard to reach locations).
One of the major reasons that people cling to their incandescent light bulbs is their 100% color rendering (CRI). Cree's LED products achieve the closest (I know of) to 100% in an energy efficient product at 92CRI.
Energy savings should be important to all of us. We can get energy savings from linear and compact fluorescent lighting at much less cost than by using LED fixtures. There IS a slight penalty for the mercury in fluorescents, but the energy savings more than makes up for that.
Nothing else approaches LEDs for longevity. At least that's what we've been promised. Only time will tell what the reality will be. Municipalities all over the country have been using LEDs in traffic signals for many years with good results.
Given those attributes, I decided a couple of years ago that Cree LED downlights had earned a place in my repertoire of regularly specified lighting products.
I still also use (indirect) fluorescent linear and CFL products all the time as well, depending on budget and application.
Peggy
I am little surprised that now LED will be used in place of conventional bulbs and CFLs. I would also like to have those in my home as they are energy efficient and saves money as well.
ReplyDelete